Secondaries, what's the point?

[scottthewaterwarrior]

Looking back on all the major wars (since I went hard core) I have been in and I realized that I almost never used my secondary even though I've carried one in almost every single one of those battles. Mind you, until a month ago I used a Helix as a secondary, but even if I had an Equalizer, like I do now, I was never in a situation where I even needed to use it. I also noticed that at downpour very few people even bothered to carry a backpack in any of the games, so what's the point in refill bottles ether? (though I have used those before) The only time I ever used my secondary at Downpour was when my Vindicator ran out during the soakfest, but if I wasn't just trying to have fun, it would have been more useful if I had just dumped the thing in my "Vin's" (hey it takes to long to type that Every gun deserves an abbreviation), tank, in which case why not just have a second water bottle in my bag instead?

Abbreviation of the Thunderstorm: PoS (Peace of Sh-Shaving cream! )

So my question is, what is the point of a secondary? (this can be used as a general thread for secondaries if people want. Do we even have one of those?)

As far as I can tell, the only point would be if you primary broke, or it ran out of water, in ether case it would probably happen in the heat of battle so you would be screwed unless you have found a way to switch to your secondary in 0.5 seconds; besides, what's an Equalizer going to do against a 2K?
I can sort of see a Max-D 2000 sized gun being used as a quick draw weapon, if your main gun broke, but anything you need to carry in a backpack would take too long to take out to be useful.
Also as far as running out of water goes, the few times I have run out in a serious battle, I've gotten blasted, or if I had a spare moment, just dumped my secondary into my primary; like I said before, why not just have a water bottle?

So what are peoples thoughts on the matter? Have you ever found a use for a secondary?

[atvan]

I suppose most secondaries are not very effective, however, there are numerous exceptions.

The first case would be to carry something like a 1200/12k when weilding a 2k- rather than being used for when you run out of water in the reservoir, it is for when you run out of water in the PC. This would be a pain to carry, but not as bad as with a 2100 without a strap mod, haha. Especially with the k, you can continue with similar range, though stock the 1200 would better allow you to hold your ground or continue to attack with less pumping while you moved to a easily defensible or well defended (either by team members or naturally) position to repump, or simply continued to press, using the 2k as a weapon for the beginning of the engagement, which is often the hottest fighting and in which range is essential. It is crucial that the secondary remains ready for use at all times either way.

The second case would be a CPS with a mid sized AP gun with strap mod. This would be a great hit and run setup, allowing you to take out weak positions yet still have a weapon ready if you suddenly get charged without a full PC. This allows you to be more ambitious, taking on larger targets alone, due to the fact that unless they are highly organized or using the technique detailed above, you will have the chance to take them out or flee to your lines with an added degree of safety while they repump. It can also be an effective deterrent to a charge, as they will be aware that you will be able to loose a full PC or more of CPS upon them, but be able to react quickly without repumping in the case that they do launch an assault against you.

The third case would be guns that are designed to be competitive in range with CPS but are much smaller, often without a reservoir and pump, and with shorter shot time, used with a standard primary. Examples would be most SCHs, and DX's Defender. These are essentially retreat weapons that have equal or greater power to the opposition, but only until the shot is fired, after which the gun is useless or will take a long time to prepare another shot. Their power lies in their compactness and easy at which they can be maneuvered with. Variants with triggers can also be used in a manner similar to a fork in chess, allowing you to take a equal shots at multiple enemies, helping to negate a number advatage or defend against a pincer.

Secondaries of course also make great primaries for smaller wars, and are debatably the best type of weapons for scouts, patrols, and vangaurds.

[HBWW]

I used my Max-D 2000/3000 as a quick-draw sidearm. It doesn't weigh me down much, are useful if I ever hit tight quarters, and are good for that one moment where you need it and its better than nothing. Plus they make me feel cooler lol. And yes, I can quick-draw it within a second.

A WBL crewman carrying a blaster could be considered as having a secondary perhaps. They also make alternatives to carrying refill water since the blaster itself does not add much weight.

Regarding light blasters (i.e. secondaries as referred to in the last line of atvan's post; I consider the Max-D 6k, Flash Flood, XP 270, etc. to be of said light class), I use them in a "speed demon" sort of style, meaning I carry one of those blasters and literally nothing else. (Except perhaps .5L refills if needed; they can be pocketed.) Light blasters as well as water balloons are also useful against opponents who are charging you too fast; you are running away from then while they are running towards you, so you have the advantage of stream travel as well as of speed due to the light weight. The tricky part is getting kills in more open areas, so you are limited to making kills with the help of nearby cover. If you go out into territory that's too open, you will likely get pummeled by a CPS that has 40% more effective kill range than your blaster.

If your secondary is something relatively useless, then you're better off just carrying .5L's or nothing at all. I would never use a piston pumper except maybe as an ultra-light primary in a war with enough cover.

[wetmonkey442]

I don't always use secondaries, but when I do, I use a CPS 2000.

(One internet dollar to anyone who gets the reference).

[marauder]

Whether or not you carry a secondary weapon depends on what your situation is. I did not carry a secondary weapon during our first battle because it was a 1 hit kills game with only 5 opponents. The same applied to the air pressure 1hk battles, I had 6 opponents and my SS 100 which gets ~65 tap shots per tank. That's more than enough water. I did have my Explorer filled and charged during the capture the flag respawn game. Why? Because I knew it was going to be a longer game with a lot more firing and there was the potential to be caught with an empty tank. I only used it to refill my 2000, but if I had run out while defending the flag, well my Explorer was there for me.

Secondary weapons are a lot more useful in longer games, or games where you don't have a known water source. In the 2nd Vermin War we were attacking, and the enemy had their 2 water sources carefully defended, so we came armed to the teeth. I had a CPS 1700, XP 105, SS 30, 50 waterballoons, and 2 2 liters in my backpack. I don't think that an XP 105 and SS 30 are ideal backups, but it is what we had available. We were outnumbered, fighting against 20 opponents, so I had to be able to transition quickly.



I'm not going to carry a sidearm usually, but if it's a longer game then I probably will. If I could pick any sidearm it'd be one of the following:
Aquapack Devastator
Power Pack
Big Trouble
Defender with slight nozzle drill
Triple Shot
Python

I don't always use secondaries, but when I do, I use a CPS 2000.

(One internet dollar to anyone who gets the reference).

... now by internet dollar you mean paypal right?

[wetmonkey442]

^Nice! Spend your dollar wisely.

Perhaps the CPS 2000 was over the top. I think a much classier secondary would be an XP 15.

In all seriousness, I don't use secondaries at all. I've actually been contemplating having a "primary" weapon be something like a WBL or watercannon that has tremendous short-term power, and you only use it once or twice, and your "secondary" is something that you use consistently when on the move, like a mid-range CPS.

[isoaker]

@M4: maybe he has a bitcoin?

As for secondaries, apart from what M4 already covered, the way I look at it; if you find yourself never needing a secondary, you're not using your primary enough.

While some may argue that one should find cover or head for a refill when you know you're running low with your primary water blaster, there are times when doing so is not a readily feasible option. Refill may be too far away, there are opponents blocking your path, refilling may not be permitted during a game, etc. Now, some will then say that a refill bottle would be as good if not better than a secondary in those situations. However, the process of refilling does take time and leaves one defenseless during that time. With a decent secondary, one can be sure to at least be able to deter potential attackers while buying time to reposition in order to prime one's primary blaster again.

That said, I tend to prefer having a larger blaster (with a strap) as my "secondary". For me, I prefer using lighter calibre blasters in general so long as their range is decent. Then if the situation demands, I'll swing my heavier-firing "secondary" into firing position to lay on a stronger drenching as needed. I'll then switch back to my lighter primary and pull back to buy me time to recharge both blasters. I really have used my CPS2000 as a "secondary".

[marauder]

That's pretty funny, but I certainly understand the point of having a secondary blaster with a big punch. The whole point is to keep people back until you bring your main gun up. I have recently been considering using a madZook as a backup, having it slung over my back. With precharged guns you can fill up other guns too, which I really like. However, it's really no use away from the house, so I probably won't do that.

What do you like using as your primary?

[isoaker]

What do you like using as your primary?

Back in the day, I'd use a CPS1000 or CPS1500 as a primary or even an XP310/Max-D6000. Were I to battle these days and had to use blasters <5 years old, I'd probably use an WW Equalizer or WW Colossus as a primary with a WW Vindicator slung over my shoulder.

[marauder]

Wow, Equalizer you completely caught me off guard with that one. It doesn't even have a pressure chamber. What do you like so much about it? I haven't used one before. If I was using the Vindicator as a sidearm I'd definitely have it on the largest nozzle (~5.5x). There is absolutely no reason for it to have a 0.5x nozzle... but I have an article coming out about that later on.

http://www.isoaker.com/Armoury/soaker_c ... s_colossus

[isoaker]

Wow, Equalizer you completely caught me off guard with that one. It doesn't even have a pressure chamber. What do you like so much about it? I haven't used one before. If I was using the Vindicator as a sidearm I'd definitely have it on the largest nozzle (~5.5x). There is absolutely no reason for it to have a 0.5x nozzle... but I have an article coming out about that later on.

http://www.isoaker.com/Armoury/soaker_c ... s_colossus

Indeed, were I having a WW Vindicator slung over my shoulder, you can bet that it'd be on its largest setting.

As for the WW Equalizer, sure it doesn't have a pressure chamber, but the way its designed, as long as you haven't overfilled it, it's nice, light, and can pretty much keep going until empty when properly pressurized. I also forgot to mention the WW Ultimate Outlaw, though if using that type as a primary, I'd lock two together just 'cos. The WW Ultimate Outlaw has a little less capacity than the original WW Equalizer which also explains why I'd want to be using two.

Oh, I also forget to mention, part of the idea behind using a lighter blaster in general is to lull an opponent into the belief they can easily charge, at which point my "secondary" gets unleashed at a closer, more effective range. I can swap blasters quickly.

[martianshark]

The Equalizer is awesome.

I don't always use secondaries, but when I do, I use a CPS 2000.

[mr. dude]

That commercial is like 5 years old, why is it a meme now?

Anyway, I've only ever had tiny (4-5 person) OHK games and soakfests that involved a ready hose, so I never really needed a secondary, but I'm still not a huge fan. I like to be able to move freely, and backpacks/secondaries slung over my shoulder tend to slow me down. My current favourite form of backup is to have a bunch of empty water balloons, but that's not so much a backup as it is an alternate tactical option.

[martianshark]

I just saw that commercial a week or two ago. It's a meme for obvious reasons.


/randomness

[scottthewaterwarrior]

Wow, Equalizer you completely caught me off guard with that one. It doesn't even have a pressure chamber. What do you like so much about it? I haven't used one before. If I was using the Vindicator as a sidearm I'd definitely have it on the largest nozzle (~5.5x). There is absolutely no reason for it to have a 0.5x nozzle... but I have an article coming out about that later on.

http://www.isoaker.com/Armoury/soaker_c ... s_colossus

Hey don't knock it before you try it. It is an incredibly powerful gun for it's size. The output isn't that high, but it gets 40+ feet and the stream doesn't break up much in the air. Being a pressure reservoir it can shoot a really long time, once you get it 1/4 the way to empty, you can shoot for several second before having to pump to keep up the 40ft range.

After what isoaker said, I am starting to rethink the whole secondary thing. Maybe I could rig a strap to my Equalizer and have my 2500 on 20x as a secondary. I've heard you shouldn't rely on the strap though. Speaking of which, does any one know if the problem is with the strap itself, or the little loopy thing you attach it too? If the strap is the problem I can easily put a different one on.

[DX]

The stock strap should be fine with a normally-loaded CPS 2500. Of course, nobody does that - when you overload it, the extra weight is too much for the stock strap. The connectors can jiggle themselves right out of the loops while walking and running. The actual strap and the loops are not the problem, it's the stock connectors. I replaced them with metal on my main 2000 and they still couldn't handle the overloaded soaker. I would advise NOT using a clip-in or slip in style connection. Instead, I would suggest a solid, metal ring that the strap permanently passes through. Or even better, a steel carbiner, so that it won't jiggle out and you can still take the strap out if you need to. I replaced a snapped clip-in on my duffle bag with a carbiner and it's worked really well.

As for secondaries, I rarely ever use them. The last time I had to draw one was at a Goffle Brook war in I think 2006. It was a long, drawn out engagement across the brook itself and both sides were trying to attack each other, but couldn't ford the brook under fire. Due to small numbers, we could not refill in rotation. Thus, I had to reach into my backpack and pull the MI Defender. The sad thing is that it shot about as far as my CPS 2500, so I didn't use it to pour water into the 2500, haha. Come to think of it, that might have been the only time I've ever drawn one.

I did take out a Max-D 5000 in a Goffle war during a battle around the mulch mounds, but it was only for field-filling water balloons. Waterbridge had taken up a defensive position on a big, solitary mound in the corner. No one could get into water gun range, so I took out the 5000, filled several balloons, and tried for it. All missed, but Waterbridge abandoned the mound in a hurry. My Defender is also capable of field-filling, but I did not have it yet at the time of this war. I never even thought about it before, but in addition to the advantages a Defender has over similar sized pistols, it can field-fill water balloons. I think it might earn a place in my backpack for future wars. The process of field-filling requires time, space, and concealment if you want it to be a surprise (the same conditions that make refilling your primary an option). However, if you have those conditions, I wouldn't discount the effect of surprise water balloons at the right place and time.

I can see WBLs or water cannons used as temporary secondaries, hence that old article on special secondaries that are primarily used as standoff breakers or serve other specific roles. I hate the "last resort" role that many people use their secondaries for. A general purpose soaker with low range and output is only slightly better against an opposing primary than having nothing. I haven't used a secondary since 2007 in NIC Nerf wars, either. Drawing a nitefinder won't buy you a window of opportunity to reload your primary unless the attacker has no idea what they are doing. It is much smarter to run away or have someone cover you. Always take my opinion on anything influenced by speed with a grain of salt, because I'm probably very biased. Speed is a card that I can play about 99% of the time and it doesn't necessarily entail running away, either. You can refill in the face of the enemy if you can come up with a plan.