CPS 135/1-3-5 stuck firing valve

[soakinader]

So remember that CPS 135 I picked up a while ago? Well it was pump-shooting out of 3 nozzles so I decided to open it up and see what was going on.

First, to open the gun, you have to start on the nozzle cover. Take the 4 screws out, then pry off the five orange caps on the nozzles. I used my trusty knife to push one side apart, then a flat screwdriver to hold that side open, and then the knife again to wedge the opposite side apart and pop them off.


Here you can see the cap wedged apart on one side:


Now for the root of my problem: the 3 stage firing valve. When I first opened it, it was stuck in the "3" position. I pushed it closed (or to the 1 position)with some difficulty, but it still leaks out of the middle nozzle/possibly somewhere else.
Here it is with the pin pushed in as far as possible:

And here it is with the pin pulled back all the way to "5" I believe:

As you can see, the internal spring isn't pushing the valve closed like it is supposed to.

Now, the stupid part about this gun is that even though it is based on the 1500, it has a firing chamber like a 1000. Meaning, no screws and I can't just open it with a screwdriver and take a look. No, if this thing is going to be opened it will be with a saw. And if I do cut it open with a saw I have No Idea where to cut it so that I don't wreck the thing irrepairably.


So now I ask- has anyone had this problem before? Anyone seen the inside of a CPS 135 valve before? And also, the most ridiculous question, if I fill this thing up with water will the problem magically go away? I normally do test guns with water before I open them but it has a tendency to make things very wet.
I think I will go and try that now... although the valve is super-tight, I'm not sure that the water will be enough to force the thing closed.

[HBWW]

*Firing valve.

This problem is everywhere, and is a good reason to hoard blasters eith pull valves that come apart. The piston seal progressively moves back to expose more nozzle openings. If the side ones are removed, it means only the front one has to seal. Unfortunately, I haven't even seen a 1-3-5, although I found some decent internals pics before while Googling around. No idea where they are right now though.

[soakinader]

Well that was a waste of time. I put some water through it, and even though it is tighter and jumpier than I would like, by pumping the gun with water I can make the valve close. It drips from the front just a bit at times. So if I can figure out some way to lubricate it, I will probably be done with this gun except for the nozzle modifications.
I still might saw this thing open if I ... could make it better, or just For Science!

*EDIT* What I want to do now is to find some 3/8" threaded fittings, ten of them in total, along with 5 or more threaded caps. Then I would cut off all of the nozzles and be able to test different configurations, including using the stock nozzles. All 5 nozzles are going to point straight (parallel) and they will range from 1-3X each. Unfortunately, the center nozzle is different from the side nozzles and I can't simple move the center one to the side nozzle and just replace the main nozzle with a homemade one. Now the trick is where to find these fittings...

[DX]

CPS are all-water systems, so I am not surprised that it wouldn't seal with air. The only way to be sure if a separate pressure chamber soaker works is to run it with water. I was able to get a super cheap 1200 at a Nerf war because it was pump-shooting and its former owner thought it was broken. But, he never bothered to test it with water and I found that it worked just fine.

I still think that playing with 1-3-5 side nozzles is a waste of time when the bladder isn't strong enough to really use them and its HPL isn't high enough for a good K-mod. If you disable the PRV, you might be able to get better results. However, I'm not sure if anyone currently still in the community has done that to a 1-3-5, so you'd be on your own for how many pumps it could take before blowing something out.

[marauder]

I think since you already have a 1-3-5 and have come this far it's definitely worth trying. At the very least we will learn more. The easiest part of this (I think) would be to make the multi nozzle mods, but then again it's been a long time since I handled a 1-3-5. I actually traded mine for a 1500. Best trade ever.

[soakinader]

So I tested the 1-3-5 with water... and it dribbles out of the middle-right nozzle constantly and the center a little bit as well. It seems to work OK, certainly the center nozzle works fine, the trigger actuates fine, but when you try and shoot 3 streams the right nozzle gets noticeably worse range.
Makes me wonder if something is stuck in there.

I will be cutting off all 5 nozzles at some point, and getting them all to face forwards. I am good at wasting time.
The question is, should I saw open the firing valve or not? And where? I'm thinking towards the front, just past the grey plastic of the shell. Since the pressure isn't that great anyways and I have glued a CPS 2500 and 3000 back together, I'm not actually that worried about it.
I have plenty of time to think about this, so I'm putting it away for now while I work on some other guns. But I would still appreciate feedback.

[HBWW]

If I had a 1-3-5, I'd just chop the other nozzles, plug them, and drill/replace the main one, followed by k-mod experiments. You'd probably be limited to some 5 balloons like the 2100 mk ii if the PRV pressure level is indeed a problem.

[soakinader]

CA99, That's not a bad idea as a last resort. However... I had a chat with Marauder and...

WELL THERE'S YOUR PROBLEM

Well now I can see into the heart of the mechanism. The valve has 3 stages- in the first stage, this hollow piece with the 2 o rings does not move, however there is a secondary spring and valve on the inside which moves and allows water to leave the main nozzle. As for the side nozzles, this piece then moves back to expose tiny holes which allow water to flow through. It is similar in design to my multi-stage valve concept.

So pulling the trigger back further does not increase the flow of water. In fact, there is no reason to plug the side nozzles at all, unless you like to pull extra hard on the trigger.

In its stock form, I can see why chopping off the middle nozzle /drilling all the nozzles isn't going to work very well. If you could modify the valve somehow, I don't see why you couldn't get more power out of the gun. In fact, has anyone ever tried swapping a 1-3-5 PC into a CPS 1500 just to see how it performs? In theory they are identical, with just the valve/nozzle design holding the 1-3-5 back.

Now I just need to figure out why these O-rings are so tight and get stuck so much. The holes for the side nozzles are small but the o rings seem a little damaged on the edges where the holes are. It would be nice to make the holes bigger but that seems like it would cause more problems.
I'm going to try and replace+lubricate the o rings, and see how that goes. Also, while I have the nozzle thingy handy, I'm going to look into chopping it up and making it... better.

EDIT: Once I added a little lubricant to the valve, holy smokes did that help! At this point I think that it will work just fine! Now, I just have to buy some poly fittings (finally) from Princess Auto, cut and paste, then glue the PC back together... and it's done!